Monday, May 28, 2007

What in the name of sanity?!?!?!?!?!?

I have just read on Father Tim Finigan's blog, the Hermeneutic of Continuity, that the "Ninety nine names of Allah" are going to be sung in Westminster Cathedral.
Well I have had enough! In the words of Mother Angelica: "Liberals, you want a war, you've got one"

You tear down our faith, destroy our sanctuaries. You shove God in to some tacky shoebox in a side aisle. You feed our children the poison of your liberal and heretical rubbish. You lead souls down the path of perdition with your wishy washy, mamby pamby nonsense. You fill your own minds with useless psychobabble and encourage others to be "creative" (ie if your gay or like a pathetic liturgy go ahead, knock yourself out). You corrupt our young with your perveted teachings on the Human Body. You refuse to let the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass be the sublime worship of God and become Peoplolaters, stuck in the 1970's. You worship the community instead of God. IDOLATERS! You don't allow others to come into contact with the mystical. Whited sepulchres!

And now you, whoever you are, permit non Christians to chant the name of Allah NINETY NINE times in the Holy of Holies!!! Blasphemy!
Desist from watering down our precious faith!
Look inside of yourselves. If a Catholic wanted a Tridentine Mass or a Novus Ordo done beautifully with Gregorian Chant, wouldn't you huff and puff?

No! You make your own brothers and sisters suffer by refusing to follow the teachings of the Church or allowing them to in peace.

And you permit a sacrilege of desolation in the Most Holy Dwelling place of the Ineffable and All Holy Trinity.

Let Islam do what it likes in its own Mosques. LEAVE OUR CHURCHES ALONE.
This is ecumenism gone too far and is in COMPLETE defiance of what Vatican II wanted.

The tide is turning, dear liberal ecumenists. In 2o years time you are going to be a minority. Pandering to the world and its ideas you will lapse from the faith. We, the Catholics who desire to be faithful to orthodoxy and the Magisterium, won't take your persecution any longer.

You want a war? YOU'VE GOT ONE!


Deacon John said...

Right On! And while they are chanting the 99 names, the Islamics are burning down dozens of Catholic churches in Iraq! Appeasing the enemies of Christ will only bring more bloodshed! St. Michael the Archangel defend us in battle!!!

Londiniensis said...

The sentiment may or may not be worthy, but the arguments are execrable:

(1) Westminster Cathedral is the spiritual home of the Novus Ordo done beautifully, and has occasional Tridentine masses.

(2) The performance of the Tavener work will involve the BBC Symphony Chorus and the Choristers of Westminster Cathedral, so the "chanting" will presumably be predominantly done by Christians.

(3) This is not going to be worship, but a secular musical composition, performed at a pay-for-entry concert.

(4) Exactly how "Muslim" the experience is going to be, as it also involves Tibetan (i.e. Buddhist) temple gongs, remains to be seen.

There are deep and serious issues involved here, and real concerns. The involvement of HRH The Prince of Wales, "defender of faiths", and the very commissioning of John Tavener bespeak some intended gesture. Also, the use of our Cathedral for non-liturgical uses, as a venue, can and maybe should be criticised.

If you want to make war, reconnoitre the enemy, discover the disposition of his troops, ascertain his objectives. Marshal your forces, plan your campaign, make your strategic and tactical decisions dispassionately. Prince Rupert charges are no doubt very exhilarating, but they lose wars.

But don't lose your ardour. In the fullness of time, I look forward to listening to your sermons.

Anonymous said...

I missed the article. It sounds hardly appropriate thing for the Cathedral.

You're right to be upset. Liberals think they are helping everyone but really they are shackling everyone in chains and leading them towards the dictatorship of the self.

Anonymous said...

So what are you going to do about it? - what can be done?

Orthfully Catholic said...

The first thing that can be done is a respectful but FIRM letter to Cathedral House!!!

Second, FIRMNESS is our decision not to stand by and watch our faith be watered down by people stuck in a 1970's time warp.Tell people honestly, firmly and respectfully that we won't be putting up with it anymore!
Third, learn and know about the faith.
Fourth, blog, blog, blog!!!


We must resolutely refuse to have anything to do with any form of liberalism. Liberalism is a sin. It is Modernist which has been flatly CONDEMNED by the Magisterium as heretical.

We must not be afraid to RESPECTFULLY but firmly tell our priests and bishops that we won't have any nonsense.

Bishops are servants of the people of God and servants of the truth.

The bishop shows that, as a father, he serves me by SERVING the truth and NOT the latest fads.

Fads do not lead to growth in the spiritual life or to salvation. It's the TRUTH that will set you free NOT Versace!

I plan to write to Cathedral House stating that I personally am scandalised that such an affairs is going on in MY Cathedral Yes MINE. And YOURS and every Catholic's!

I will ask also if there is a plan for Holy Mass to be celebrated in the Central London Mosque!

Gongs indeed! You have to go to the ends of the earth and back to find a Mass with a Sanctus bell and here we are allowing GONGS booming away to Allah, Krishna, Buddha and BOB from down the road!

We must be clear. I am not out to force any muslim to become a Catholic or to have Mass in their Mosques. I wonder if Pope Benedict would allow such utter stupidity to happen in St. Peter's?

Methinks NOT!

Ttony said...

Your pastoral placement must have been a cracker!

Anonymous said...

God help us if would-be future priests reveal such arrogance, venom and immaturity. I agree that it's quite wrong that this bizarre 'concert' is proposed. Experience shows, however, that the kind of response you make is unhelpful at best and cruel, thoughtless and alienating at worst. A considered, pastoral response would be more effective and more mature. You boys have such a shock to face when you leave the Ivory Tower of the seminary and engage with real people in real parishes. I, for one, will NOT be visiting this blog ever again.

Anonymous said...

Count me in...reading about st Edmund Campion...

Orthfully Catholic said...

Real people?!?! Aren't the people who have expressed horror in their comments here "real people"?

I am not cruel. Cruelty is what many young seminarians, who were orthodox, suffered, especially in the USA, when they were chucked out for being "old fashioned". Cruelty is what people suffer when they are given a general absolution and think everything is OK.

Cruelty is watching a priest give a protestant Holy Communion whilst looking with disdain on those who love the Tridentine Mass or the Novus Ordo done beautifully.

I know of one lady who was a Extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist who was instructed by her PP to give the Precious Blood to protestants present at Mass. She was horrified. As they came up she just thought: What did the martyrs die for?

I have seen it myself.

No. For too long Catholics who want to be faithful to the Church have been belittled, ridiculed and sidelined. That's cruel and immature.

Most of the people who left comments on here are lay people from real parishes ( there's a mother of ten children on here and there's nowt more real than that.!!!)

But all I can say is thank God the tide has turned. Catholic orthodoxy is on the rise and the future of truth looks, at last, more secure.

And in fact it is those who dissent from Church teaching who alienate.

Anonymous what is happening is SCANDALOUS. I, for am scandalised. Shocked and scandalised. I am appalled. I am hurt at what is going on.

Did you know that in Fatima a few years ago a Hindu prest performed a pagan ritual on the Altar there. This is evil. But you would have said: Give a pastoral response.

Nonsense. Catholics need to show their anger. Christ did in the Temple. What would you have said to Jesus as He cleared the Temple?

I do, however, assure you that I shall not go into Westminster Cathedral with a cord of rope! I'll just write a letter to Cathedral House.

John said...

"Cruelty is what many young seminarians, who were orthodox, suffered, especially in the USA, when they were chucked out for being "old fashioned".

That is my very greatest fear :S

Ma Beck said...

Oh, yes, let's just roll over while they continue to not only murder our priests and sisters, but commandeer our churches as well.
This INSANITY has GOT to end.
Bravo, Orthfully Catholic!
We sure as hell need more priests like you guys.
Thank you, Lord, for sending us such fine men with BACKBONES, which seem in short supply in the priesthood AND laity these days.

antonia said...

hehe! I'm on your side!

Londoner said...

"In COMPLETE defiance of what Vatican II wanted" ....

Well, this is what Vatican II actually said in respect of the relationship between the Church and non-Christian religions:

"The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting. Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom." Nostra Aetate (4)

Which course of action best fulfils this aim? Your post, or the Cathedral Concert?

Orthfully Catholic said...

Thanks for your comment.
I really believe in what Nostra Aetate REALLY said. But where in what you have quoted does it say that Catholic churches should be used for concerts or any for of Non-Christian worship.

You see the problem is these documents have been misunderstood by liberals, trads and orthodox alike.
Please forgive me but read what you have quoted again.
Essentially we are dealing with forgiveness of the PAST.

But what about the brutal murder of Christians in Muslim countries today, NOW? I am willing to forgive that but it must stop!

Also I am happy for Muslims to worship in THEIR buildings. I personally believe that Islam does not lead to salvation. Do muslims go to heaven? If they do it's thanks to Christ and the merits of His Church. And they aren't muslims when they get there.

God bless

Londoner said...

Dear Orthfully Catholic

If you’ll allow me to say so, I think your point is a bit of a non-sequitur. The primary focus of Nostra Aetate may very well be the past, but the underlying principle – of promoting forgiveness and understanding – surely applies as much, if not more, to the present as well. This doesn’t mean condoning the Muslim fanaticism to which you refer, still less, rewriting history in the interests of political correctness. Fanaticism is wrong wherever and whenever it occurs. Nor does it mean accepting the secularist liberal doctrine that there is no positive truth in religion and that we have to be apologetic about our faith. In the words (again) of Nostra Aetate the Church “proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ the way, the truth, and the life, in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.” From the point of view of Christian theology, Islam is a heresy just as much as Arianism and Monophysitism because, like them, it rejects the divinity of Jesus Christ and, like classical Protestantism, believes in an extrinsic theory of redemption, if indeed it is meaningful to speak of an Islamic soteriology at all. Neverthless, as Nostra Aetate (once more) puts it “The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men.”

With regard to so-called “Islamic” piece of music played in Westminster Cathedral, Tavener’s own position is that of a syncretistic, liberal sceptic, rather than that of a committed Muslim. When he turned his back on Russian Orthodoxy in 2004 he was quoted as saying that “it strikes me now that all religions are as senile as one another”, a point which I think is worth bearing in mind. Which raises the separate point of whether we have to approve of the moral, philosophical or spiritual content of a work of art or literature in order to be able to enjoy it.

Yours in DNJC


Orthfully Catholic said...

What I said is not a non-sequitur. In fact I think we're probably saying the same thing!

My point is that the boundaries of documents such as Nostra Aetate have been blurred. Many people don't realise that you cannot just take one document on its own. It must been seen in conjunction with others. Nostra Aetate is essentially about forgiveness. Forgiveness about the past. When a muslim murders a Christian even this morning it's past, isn't it?

I'm getting sidetracked!

Nostra Aetate is about dialogue and forgiveness. The problem is very simple and clear to any orthodox Catholic. What is going to happen in Westminster Cathedral can, in no way, be justified by Nostra Aetate. People who do or will justify with Nostra Aetate the upcoming events are blurring the picture.

Nostra Aetate basically says: Hey we've got a fair amount in common. We believe in one God. We believe in revelation etc. Let's dialogue and try be at peace and not kill each other.

What it does not say is that we're the SAME. Allowing the Ninety Nine names of Allah to be sung in the Cathedral blurs that.

It basically says: We're all going up the same mountain just by different routes.

I don't think that this discussion should go on any longer because basically I think you and I agree that it's not a good idea for this to happen in the Cathedral.

Can I call the creator Allah? Yes, IF and I repeat IF I understand that to mean the Arabic word for 'God'. In Maltese God is Allah.And in the Maltese Mass, in the preface they use the word Allah. I think someone else mentioned this in another comment.

The problem is Islam. If I address God as Allah with Muslim theology in mind and heart then I am an apostate.

Arabic Christians refer to God as Allah since Allah is Arabic for God as Dios in Spanish, Dieu in French and Deus in Latin and Portuguese.

The essential problem with what is planned in the Cathedral is that it is MUSLIM. The Ninety Nine name thing is ISLAMIC. That's what I really protest to since as Londoner says: Islam is essentially a heresy and a Christian one at that.

Another Way? said...

Why so much objection? All faiths come to their true inheritance in Christ. Remember He is the leaven who would bring all to himself. When we step out in faith to meet those who do not, or will not know him we offer a lifeline. Through Christ the names of Allah are sanctified. Tavener is Orthodox, his faith wil embrace his music both subject and object. Some of us disagree with this event or have concerns but we have been given a powerful tool, the Rosary. Dedicate it to all Christians who suffer persecutions in muslim countries. Dedicate it to muslims who may attend this event in the hope that it will open their hearts and minds to Christ. God will do the transforming, do not worry about that.
Our work as Catholics is to love and pray the Rosary. We know the power of this. We have been told.
Are we prepared to do our work?

Londiniensis said...

Dear Prince Rupert,

There is nothing in Nostrae Aetate, or in any other Vatican II document which I have read, which either explicitly or implicitly supports or decries the performance in Catholic Churches of secular music based on non-Christian themes. To bring this up muddies the waters.

Anonymous (29/05/07) makes a very good point, which you should re-read carefully, and even discuss with your spiritual director.

Wordsworth once said that Poetry takes its origin from Passion recollected in Tranquillity. The same goes for polemical prose.

In tranquillity, then, abjure capitalised words, exclamation marks, exaggerated line spacings, random insults - and always check and double check your facts.

What you write has such similarities of argument and style to the extreme trad and sedevacantist trash which litters the internet that I fear for you. I do want one day to hear you preach, but not in an SSPX, or worse, chapel.

Fr Ray Blake said...

"Liberalism is a sin".
I think you need to explain quite what you mean by "Liberal".

holyfamoley said...

I feel that perhaps the cathedral is an inappropriate venue for the performance of the said work.

That said, I feel that the tone of your argument, is somewhat sensationalist. It does, however, seem to appeal to some of your like-minded friends in the blogosphere. In a parish setting I think you might find that such strong expression of views might have a less wide appeal. It is not so much what we say as the way that we say it.